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Pauls words on women in the Church are not to be understood as figurative and are not to interpret literally. Women make men. Kindly see my note to Michael W. Clark here. | Stupid | | | 2007-02-14 08:42:58 Posted by Anders (awell@online.no)

Love conquers all! In Heaven Christ will be the main attraction. Wow -- What more could we ask for? Brenda 2007-02-14 11:16:29 Posted by From God's Word ()

Mel, I might be able to come up with a front- loader or a back-hoe for ya. That is unless you get in any deeper. I'm here for ya buddy. 2007-02-14 12:41:14 Posted by Monte ()

I have to trust that by God's Grace, he will complete this in me, unless the intention is for him to begin this in others more than complete it in my understanding. Ya. It is very deep! And I am wading well in past the point of being able to save myself here... In Christ, Mel 2007-02-14 16:47:46 Posted by Mel ()

Hi Mel, I was just going to say the same - this is way too deep for me. I have no answer (obviously)! I did want to mention that I am glad you expanded on the whole Ephesians verse about wives submitting to their husbands - and in turn men must love their wives as Jesus loved the Church. Jesus loved the church so much He gave His life for her - that is a whole lot of love that we women expect. And in turn we must respect and submit - seems like a fair trade. Happy Valentines Day (your favourite day I believe?) 2007-02-14 22:26:35 Posted by Mary Lou ()

Simple and sad put. 2007-02-15 09:22:22 Posted by Anders (awell@online.no)

You do remember the whole conflict before concerning women in the church? Is it worth delving into again? Will anyone be able to convince me to stop preaching at the risk of being disobedient to God? I think not! Better to suffer narrow looks, judgements and condemnations, than to suffer HELL. In His Service and In His Love, 2007-02-16 10:48:25 Posted by Teri ()

Mel, I realize your initial objective was to talk about love in the manner that God intended it to be expressed between men and women, but our responses have turned this into a different post altogether. So, here's my two cents' worth: The teachings I've received on this subject (from both men and women) have mostly said that Paul was addressing specific situations in the churches to which he was writing, both about women being silent in the assembly and about the head covering issue. I'll admit that I haven't done the research myself, but I trust the sources of my information, and those sources taught me that in the case of the women being silent and not teaching the men, there was a problem in that local church where the women (acting on their newfound freedom from the oppressive pagan religion they had been practicing before) were disrupting the services with questions and comments. In some cases they were sincerely trying to learn, while in others they were simply being mouthy. Either way, it was causing problems that Paul, as the church's apostle, was called upon to resolve. It's also been said that there was a lot of persecution of Christians in that church's region at the time, and Paul may have been trying to protect the women from being arrested, imprisoned or killed for being too vocal about their newfound beliefs. I suspect that it may have been a little of both situations. In the case of the head covering issue, Paul was using a case-building technique common in philosophical debates of his day to point out how ridiculous the whole argument was. If you read that whole passage, especially aloud, it's easy to imagine Paul's voice dripping with sarcasm as he dictates the message to his assistant. His point, as I read it, is that these people had more important matters to deal with than whether or not the women were veiled (or these days, hatted) in church. We know that Paul valued the contributions of women to God's work; he mentions several women who opened their homes to churches, and he never condemns them for having taken the initiative in that area. He also mentions a couple with whom he ministered at one point,a husband and wife named Aquilla and Priscilla, but in five of the seven times the couple is mentioned (by Luke in Acts and by Paul in his letters), Priscilla is listed first, implying that she had the more direct ministerial role in that relationship. I know there are those who believe women's roles in the church should be limited, but to them I say: What about Deborah? What about Lydia? What about Priscilla? What about letting God call whom He will call, and what about letting the called one obey the calling? What about Galatians 3:28? I think we need to allow God to be God in this matter, and we need to obey His callings in our individual lives. To make doctrine out of Paul's writings to a specific church about a specific situation is, I think, a slippery slope that too many have already slid down, to the detriment of the cause of Christ. Mel, you mentioned in a previous post the whole issue of treading carefully with others in areas where we have more liberty in Christ in our convictions, lest we cause someone else to stumble in their faith. I pray that my comments here be seen as clarifying and not divisive. I'm just trying to pass along what I've learned in the hope that it will give more freedom to others in this area. In Christ's service, Traci 2007-02-16 10:51:40 Posted by Traci ()

Traci, I will not tell you to not preach. Have no fear in that area. When I say that I will not join a church (in a previous post I think I mentioned this) that had a woman in the pulpit, it was more that I do not know that it is right, rather than know it is wrong. I will not tell a woman to be silent. I do not and have not ask women not to post. Rather, I try to encourage it so that I an glean understanding that comes from what for me is obviously a different perspective. As for a woman in the pulpit, right or wrong, God's Word stands on its own and it doesn't matter who says it. My concern in this area is probably pretty esoteric for most, but rather than use that as an excuse to not delve into it, I am convinced that I must, and I cannot even quality that beyond saying it is what I believe I must do. Traci, I value your insight. I trust that my seeking understanding in this and going at it this way, as devisive as it may seem is something, in faith, I am compelled to do at this point in my life. And I don't find your comments divisive. I pray that what all may say may help us all find clarity in this area. Too many times, we are afraid to speak in this area. With God's Blessings on you and all of us as well, Mel 2007-02-16 11:39:25 Posted by Mel ()

Mel, rest assured that I've never worried about your comments offending me, because I trust your heart as I've seen it expressed in these posts. I've gotten lost on your trails of thought once or twice, but it's like reading Jane Austen - if you take the trouble to work your way through the maze, you'll find that it makes sense in the end. I know you wouldn't tell me not to preach, and I don't even know if I've ever read the post you refer to about the woman pastor. If that's how you feel, that's okay with me. I figure that it's up to an individual to go where they feel God is telling them to go, regardless of the pastor's gender. I also believe that if God tells you to attend a church with a female pastor, you'll be obedient enough to step out of your comfort zone and do it, because I know from your writings that you're a man after God's heart and you wouldn't disobey Him if you knew for sure He was leading you to go to such a church. Having sat under both male and female pastors, I can say that there are advantages and disadvantages to both. Female pastors can sometimes be more nurturing, but sometimes their pastoring can feel like mothering, which may not be what you want in some situations. Also, a woman pastor tends to be something of a steel magnolia because she has to be really strong in her conviction that God called her to be a pastor, since there are always those who will oppose her simply based on centuries of teaching. That strength, when tempered with love and grace, can be a blessing to a congregation. If the woman allows her heart to become hard as a safeguard against those detractors, though, it can cause her to become harsh and legalistic to an even greater degree than her critics. My feeling is that regardless of the pastor's gender, we must be mindful of the pastor's preaching, namely whether or not it lines up with God's Word, both in letter and in spirit. I've seen some really legalistic preachers of both genders, and I've also seen some preachers of both genders whose teachings were off-base because they'd taken a few verses out of context and built whole doctrines around them. That's how cults get started, so we have to constantly weigh what we're told from the pulpit and in the Sunday school classrooms against God's Word and the witness of the Holy Spirit within us with that Word. Anyway, to recap, I appreciate your response to my comments, Mel, and I want to assure you that my comments were directed not at you, but at any detractors among your readership. This subject is one that provokes strong feelings and can cause much harm in the Body of Christ when approached in a legalistic way. I'm just glad that this forum is one where we can share our viewpoints with grace and forebearance toward one another. God bless you, my brother! Traci 2007-02-16 15:05:08 Posted by Traci ()

Traci, For your kind words, I Thank You. I think you honor me too much to say that my heart is good. I try to keep it that way, true enough, but I don't think for one momment that I have attained that goal, yet... In Christ, Mel 2007-02-19 11:49:17 Posted by Mel ()

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