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I think people can certainly improve themselves, even without God. People having a sin nature says that they can't be sin-less, but not that they can't sin less. As for you, the fact that you are working on something with God guarantees that you will see results. He IS faithful. But it doesn't promise a timeframe. Be patient. 2006-01-16 22:33:48 Posted by Jon ()

I often enough have come across the arguement of the basic nature of humans being good or evil. My subscription to the evil in us is similar to yours. I believe we all have the "seeds" of evil within us, such as a selfish child, which was a very good example on your part. We water the evil, and it grows. At first it is watered by our parents who do not oppose it within us. Then as we gain responsibility for our own actions, we water those little seeds that have grown over the years, and that we may have grown attached to, very litterally. For each of us, those "seeds" are different. That is one reason a person who is not an alcoholic has little chance of completely understanding what that person who is an alcoholic is dealing with. Same with compulsive gambling, smoking, promiscuity, and whatever sin you wish to name. Some are little seeds, and not so deeply rooted that we cannot root them out. Others are deeper and more pervasive, and without God's grace and power, they rule us. The sins I struggle with are like this. Original sin, I think, is linked to the fact that we are not as Adam and Eve were created. We are no longer perfect, and the imperfections are even manifested in genetic abnormalities such as autism, hemophelia, and some would argue, homosexuality. (I am not in agreement with the last, but cannot say that it is not the case either -- the AMA does not consider homosexuality a disease to be treated, and the waters quickly get muddy here) These diseases are outward signs of the imperfection within that we need to acknowledge. We can treat the symtoms, but the disease remains. Such is also the way of self-improvement. Those that have succeeded have only rid themselves of the symtoms, not of the disease itself. To get rid of the disease itself, we need God active in our lives. The context I usually get hit with this is along the lines of the Military and War being evil because people are generally good. In cases that the arguement goes that way, I generally sidestep the arguement that they are making by pointing to empirical evidence. Was Hitler evil? Was Stalin evil? How about Geroge Bush? Eventually, they will answer that some leader is evil. So they themselves must admit a capacity for evil. Then you ask them how to deal with it. Some will honestly believe that only peaceful resistance is appropriate. Ask them if they have always, in every situation, been peaceful. Most will honestly say no, they have not. So then you ask them to reconcile the fact that they believe that any form of violence is wrong and yet they, a basically good person, has inclinations along that way. Some will get verbal. (even violently so, which is distressing and amusing at the same time) Others will get pensive. In both cases, sitting silent and offering no further response is the most effective way to make the point. People are evil. At the very least, the capcity is there in all of us, even the ones who would seek to have us all self-improve ourselves to get rid of it. The passage I recently put on my site about Leaders and the Sword is just along this line. Because of this evil in us, a way was needed to control the Great Evils that can harm many. It was suggested by comment that the Sword represents Death. In its ultimate form, yes it does. I think it also represents lesser forms of coercive force (evil enough in its own sense) with the implied abilty to escalate to its ultiamte form. Police carry guns. They kill people from time to time. Yet when they pull you over for a traffic offense, do they pull out their gun and shoot you dead? No. But in pulling you over, your response could and sometimes does, push it to that ultimate extreme. You say how can God allow evil (coercive force) be used to control evil? The answer is: I don't know. Why did God give Moses instructions on certificates of divorce? Because our hearts were hard. But still, I have no complete answer to that mystery. The best I can suggest it that the coercive force is not evil, rather it is the heart of the one who forces it to be applied (by their own wicked and selfish endangerment of others) that is evil. I.e., if the use is justified, it is not evil in any way. Rather, it is more like an antibiotic used to kill a disease, sometimes used in a more massive scale. Still more answers to seek, Mel 2006-01-17 02:23:18 Posted by Mel ()

I read your comments with noddings of my head & mostly agree with what you say. The trick is, not to offend, if it is a trick, whilst making your point & giving your opinion. Most people who hold opinions are SOMETIMES unable to see the other side of the debate. Your friend who says you are being cynical is a point. I personally feel that sometimes we are apt to use scriptures in a way which they were not written for. The exegesis of a particular passage does not always support what a small part of a verse says & therefore we use it out of context. It then becomes a pretext. I think that one of the best ways of putting across a point is saying; "that is what I as a Christian believe." Using the way God loves, "unconditionally" is also a way in which we can put our point across, all others want something in return, be it physical or mental, God loves us as we are & accepts us as we are. God's love is where we are meant to start, I will pray for you in order that you might begin to feel God's love & the peace of Christ, surrounding you. That you may be able to discuss & grow. May our God richly bless you as you meditate upon him. Hope this helps. Love In Jesus Name Stuart 2006-01-17 06:06:10 Posted by Stuart (stuart@sadrankin.com)

For me, it was God who made me aware of areas I needed to change in the first place. If I never met God, I wonder if I'd ever want to change who I was. Before being saved, I liked the way I was. After meeting God and having my eyes opened, I was shocked to see just what a "horrible" peson I actually was. Something would have to occur in someone's life to make them aware of the fact that they need to change. You are in my prayers and may God grant you the understanding, wisdom and knowledge that you need. God Bless 2006-01-17 14:23:24 Posted by Lee ()

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